roger altman house

I think Bush inspires greater loyalty than Clinton, just does. Who was the New York group that helped him with fundraising and maybe also with policy? But also the role of the media had been changing a lot and that role I think manifested itself very vividly in the Clinton years. I started doing a lot of the same thing Id done on the economic plan: radio shows, television stuff, running around the country. Thats how politics works. He knew the rhythm, so to speak, of the Democratic Party, including in New York. When you were suggesting Edmund Morris I was thinking. But of course Republican support was sought. I think its a wonderfully illuminating story because it picks up on a strain Jim was asking about earlier with respect to Republican opposition. I can recall David Halberstam on the way out saying to me that he never heard a politician as effective as Clinton since JFK [John Fitzgerald Kennedy]. I attended the little thing at Monticello when he was on his way to be inaugurated, the first time he stopped by in the bus. Did you keep up with him when your paths parted? Theyre already heavily taxed, its their money, not the governments money and all of that, and if it works, nobody will remember that I opposed it. Every imaginable issue arose and Clinton hit all those balls out of the park and it gave the American public a chance to see how astonishingly smart and deep this guy was. You had been asked to be a part of that enterprise. As I recall, the distinctive thing about Clinton, if everyone had one courageous stand, his was on free trade. It became obvious to me that it was just untenable to keep trying to shout into this hurricane. The Clinton years were not in any respect unique from that point of view, but that partisanship for some reason or other seems to go in cycles and we just happen to come into office at a time when the cycle was moving up in terms of the scale of partisanship. Secretary Bentsen had already left. Actually it was mundane. Youre an exception to this. Only to a degree. Greenspan sat next to Mrs. Clinton. The period during which Bentsens views werent treated with quite enough respect was a very short one. Bentsen said, Youre going to ask for this, and youre going to get this, meaning that. Altman donated $41,000 to the Biden Action Fund, a joint fundraising committee, in May, according to Federal Election Commission records. There was a whole bunch of work going on on that but I was completely preoccupied with the Presidents economic program and trying to get it passed, not just during the war room period but before that. I should double-check that. Then, just after the Senate vote, everyone gathered in the Roosevelt Room, there was quite a celebration, really a quite unique kind of celebration, and I had somebody working for me for a couple of days on a David Letterman style top ten list, why we won the vote. Did you have close relations with people in Cuomos operation, because I think, at least in the early stages, there was still a consideration that he might come out? Rubin was well known as an economic conservative, and Bentsen, of course, had a very long legislative record, which was in the same direction. I do recall some rushed discussions at the very end about what we do now and how we flesh out his policies, and I can recall talking to George Stephanopoulos the morning the convention ended about certain steps we were going to take now in terms of getting better organized on policy development and issues. Clinton moved quickly. But for reasons I dont fully understand, it goes in cycles, and we came into office at a time when an up cycle so to speak on partisanship was asserting itself. Were there follow-up meetings with Japan that you were involved in after the summit? So he didnt have the luxury of saying, Lets do it a year from now, as you often do with other things. The first vote on one of Clintons issues was a defeat, which presaged a lot of the weakness that then afflicted him during 1993. Everybody was sitting in a room for the endless hours that have been so widely written about, which was quite a chaotic, disorganized process and not particularly Presidential process. [Mikhail] Gorbachev was an enormous free gift to Ronald Reagan. How big a group was doing this recasting? Hes chancellor of the Board of Education of New York, hes a good friend of mine, and I had dinner with him about a month ago and I said, Does it make any difference who the President is as far as youre concerned? I dont think its wholly right becauseand this may sound strange coming from mePresident Reagan I think will be seen very favorably by historians, mostly because hell be seen as the man who ended the Cold War, and Reagan didnt have to take the position of aggressive anti-Soviet behavior, but he did. That was the first thing I did. Having watched very carefully what Bob Carswell, who served for three plus years of the four Carter years as Deputy Secretary, did in that role, and that was actually rather different than my role. No, this was in December. Mexican trucking, citrus, tomatoes, Im not joking. Do you think that making this effort was driven by foreign policy considerations first and foremost, or was it genuinely an economic policy? Were you involved in that effort? I was struck from the beginning that Clinton was blessed with a very weak field, which, for example, is not the case today. Altman made a point to carry shoes as tiny as size 5 and mammoth as size 20, with widths ranging from super skinny AAAA to 6E and kept 23 basement storage I was just in awe of people like that. Sure. Also, strong figures, not weak figures. He didnt, but he thought he could. Everything is susceptible to being phased in, to being cut back, to being pilot-programmed. One of the initial ideas was an energy tax. We made two or three trips to Japan and then there was the Tokyo Economic Summitthe G7 Summit in the fall of 93 which happened to be planned many years in advance for Tokyo. We can go into that in a little more depth, the pure politics part of it. Tulip Brenner (Carol Burnett) tells off her sister-in-law (Peggy Ann Garner) in Robert Altman's "A Wedding." I certainly have every reason to want him to. But that was fairly brief, though. I think though, if I can repeat myself once, I finished reading a few months ago a marvelous biography of TR [Theodore Roosevelt], the second volume of Edmund Morris work. There was a camp around that view. Web446 Roger Altman Photos and Premium High Res Pictures - Getty Images CREATIVE EDITORIAL VIDEO All Sports Entertainment News Archival Browse 446 roger altman Did it come out of Arkansas? The political process requires an outcome. Yes, and Im sure that any number of opponents to the Presidents plan were sincere in their expectation that it wouldnt work. Unfortunately, during the Clinton era ultimately there were four, five, or six independent counsels chosen to look into Bruce Babbitt and Ron Brown and some of the other people. Some of them I think were insincere, but many of them were sincere. One of the themes they advanced was deficit reduction, not the only one. No, no. And I also think that theres a certain sense of loyalty among the people that are currently serving in this administration, which is more in keeping with tradition, than the Clinton folks, or many of them I should say, brought to it. Oh yes, sure. Also fifth, to some degree, Alan Greenspan weighed in, and a view developed that if we tightened fiscal policy, there would be the opportunity to loosen monetary policy. I thought maybe we should step back and let you give us a more organized picture of what it is that you were doing with respect to U.S.-Japanese relations. Bob Rubin was the ultimate financial market person, knew the role of the Federal Reserve so well. I attended Georgetown University and I was a year ahead of him. Does that mean that the first initiative of the new President, should he, she, be a Democrat be healthcare? I mean just the vote itself and the fact that not a single Republican voted for this, which even by its critics is seen now as having been at least a contributor to the economic prosperity and fiscal balance that later resulted. I believe it was a five-year statute of limitations and the expiration date was January 94 or February or something like that. Disrespecting the President. The process for conceiving it was a frail one, poor one. But apropos of my comments earlier that classic, unreconstructed liberalism had never been my cup of tea, I never identified with Mario Cuomo. He did quite well. I guess I probably began to help raise money, its a rough memory now, in the early fall, perhaps September of 91. You were both involved then in student government. Which has become a part of the conventional wisdom about this period now, perhaps based on Woodwards analysis. But that moment was quite amazing. He got Republican ex-Presidents to sign on, though, as I recall. Any particular memories from that successful trip? You may remember that Clinton put forward a white paper, if I can call it that, called Putting People First, which came out I believe at the end of 1991. Of course, during earlier phase of this, Bernie Nussbaum had resigned, mostly over the fact that he met with me on this original matter. Yes, but typically you wouldnt resort to that with relative stability in the exchange markets, and we did have relative stability. Please. There are extremes here. None of the aspects of her role bothered me at all. What are the lasting accomplishments, the lasting legacies of this administration, regardless of whether the historians are going to pick up these strains as being historically important or flamboyantly important enough to elevate Clinton into an upper- echelon Presidency? The social aspect of it also involved here? So there was a lot of humor like that. So they came in and interviewed him. Its always a mistake to challenge the Federal Reserve. Did you think that they took those claims seriously, or was this pure politics? Clinton, as I mentioned before, held a series of marathon meetings, I recall that virtually all of them were on the Roosevelt Room, and they went on for four, five, six, seven hours, talking about possible elements of the economic program. Youre working on prospective personnel issues? That happened, I want to say, late 93, that his nomination was effectively killed. The notion, by the way, in Bob Woodwards book, The Agenda, that Greenspan was hovering over the proceedings like an angel of death is completely fictitious. Thats a good point, but thats because there were some people whod been around the track. We met for six or seven hours in the Governors mansion there. So the fact that if we were sitting here in 2053, that a President 54 years ago balanced the budget wouldnt mean a heck of a lot to us, right? We talked for about 12 seconds about any role that I might play. Then Clinton, as I mentioned, this one big event in January of 92Clinton was great on his feet. It was very effective because it was a group of roughly 20-25 people, working literally 19-20 hours a day with only one mission, and that mission was to get this bill passed. He had just made it through this cliffhanging vote on which the administrations credibility for the next several years, I think, would largely depend, and it depends on the support of overwhelming shares of Democrats in the House and the Senate to get through. Just promotes disunity and so forth. The film director, known for making films that are highly naturalistic, but with a stylized I said I would and we went forward. It was a good-sized ballroom here in New York. As a Democratic President however, he could have vetoed the bill and it would have been sustained by Congress. No, two funny stories, Jim, dont let him off so easily. Not too much, though. Id actually been politically active in high school, but my political involvements didnt extend beyond the campus. In some measure. They were done among the United States, Mexico, and the Congressional parties involved. Carter did the same thing but much lower key. I went back to the airport in Austin, reported that to Warren Christopher, and I think we were all announced within a week. That was pretty damn effective. I mean, maybe Reagan was to some degree briefly an anomaly, although he never had the reputation of being an anomaly, and so I wondered if the President, as Commander-In-Chief, also responsible for foreign policy, viewed this particular policy in that light too. So those ideas were developed during the campaign. Weve all seen this happen often in Washington. Then, that sent the ball in motion so to speak, in terms of that being the focus of discussion, although the senior members of that group were pretty united on the fact that we should make a real effort on the deficit. I believe it was the same night that she gave her press conference. That was not clear to me. That was in July or June or something. Its improved a lot since then, now become of course one of the leading universities in the country, but it was not at that time, in fairness. He was shot eight times, mostly in the chest. Ive known many members. Then the President spoke to Kerrey. Right off the bat in the administration, a group of us were deputized to try to lay the groundwork for a productive summit. Well, how do you know? No, but it wasnt just entirely that. Can you talk about Perots influence on the campaign? Was it his personality that won, or was he able to? I dont know how many people would have the political courage to do that, but I know I wouldnt have. All types of dire predictions were put forward. I think it counts for four, five percent of the spending. he is one of famous Financial professional with the age 75 years old group. Did you do anything else? By that late stage of the budget battle, all the concessions and fine-tuning that could be made to the bill had already been done, so you had a package at that point that wasnt going to be reopened. Did the portfolio members that you were approaching on NAFTA change from the work you were doing. The next thing is a free-trade agreement, which I think the President could have dodged, he didnt have to go all out on that. No. Were you privy to the conversations that he had? He was clearly learning as he went. He did a version of what Carter did earlier, which was end up positioned to the right of most of his opponents in the Democratic primaries. But my first point is that that entire team was out there promoting the Presidents economic package, both crisscrossing the country for that purpose, speaking, visiting Congressional districts and so forth, testifying on it of course, visiting one-on-one with members of Congress. I think it was obvious to Clinton that there were several serious people there in New York whose support he wanted to get who felt strongly about what I would call a centrist economic policy, perhaps right of center economic policy. Decided to do this. But youd been doing transition work for a month. The relationship between Clinton and Bentsen was quite unusual. I mean, the worst recession since the Great Depression occurred in 1981 and 1982 and in the fall of 82, in early August, Reagan was being described as Herbert Hoover, politically dead, gone, might as well already make his reservations back to Santa Barbara and so forth. We just didnt know, and thats pretty amazing, the biggest piece of legislation, the voting has actually begun. Not likely, and was not the case in 92. So he got people to serve for a long time, even if they were not intensely loyal to him. Was it the selection of the people who were going to do the economic. Fourth, I recall that the economic forecasts for 93 were not very heartening. I also learned that when I saw that, it wasnt likely to ultimately succeed. But the politics of the Btu tax, as compared to other types of energy taxes, were not well considered. He doesnt even know about the advent of optical scanners in grocery stores, and that was the theme, that was THE central theme as codified, so to speak, in [James] Carvilles famous comment, its the economy, stupid. Id served four years in the Carter Treasury but I hadnt had that much exposure in those years to the President. Chicago, of course, always has been, and they attracted very different students. Somethings pretty strange here. But from their vantage point, thats when they experienced intense partisanship. So not long after arriving in the new offices, which were over there on Vermont Avenue, I remember that, I went over to the Treasury and met with Secretary [Nicholas] Brady and the Deputy Secretary, very nice manname escapes me at the momentand began to debrief the senior members of the department. In all aspects? I ran three times for student office while I was there. That was the logical place because I served there before. Did you stay in Little Rock for a while afterward? Id actually done that precise role before, in 1976, obviously at a much different age, but I was put in charge of the Treasury transition at that time. I mean, not one encounter, until the early to mid 80s when I was quite involved in various aspects of the Democratic Party and there were a few forums at various places that I would attend and I would occasionally run into him. Roger C. Altman is Founder and Senior Chairman of Evercore, which has become the most active independent investment bank in the world. Everything imaginable. So obviously by inauguration day hed largely assimilated them. The entire economic team flew on a chartered plane down to Little Rock. You were responsible for organizing the war room. You were involved in the Little Rock Economic Summit? As I recall the campaign of 1992, there were lots of policy debates amongst the Democrats. I mean, I saw a lot of the two of them and I became quite friendly with Hillary, and by the time I left the administration was actually much more friendly with Hillary than I was with the President, even though ironically Id obviously known him first. Its quite a difference and I ascribe it to the fact that she does not look at the world as, or at least in my experience, as solely and only politically. No admission fee, no contribution required. I think Clinton will come out pretty well. The Federal Government doesnt have much of a role in education. Georgetown was the equivalent of a placid, slow-moving river and Chicago was the equivalent of a roaring torrent. It was a priceless education in the way the Congress and all the surrounding politics really worked. We had had recent experience in which the President of the United States took very strong actions against the Japanese, with these agreed-upon quotas for U.S. exports, exports in autos to the U.S., I dont quite remember how longThat was negotiated certainly over the wishes of the Japanese but less than ten years. Im not the best witness on that because I didnt see it or feel it, but there may well have been. One, the recession of 91 and early or mid 92, the economy was performing poorly. So actually I didnt have any concerns. Sure. I spent the last couple of hours of that period in the Oval Office with the President and that was quite unforgettable too because the President was hugely animated, to some extent discouraged, to some extent angry, and there were moments when I was the only one in there with him. You were responsible then for recruiting the people who were going to be in it? So there was a rather constant process of monitoring, assessing, adjusting, going on that way. We wanted Japan to commit to rebalance the current account between the two countries, including committing itself to some pro-growth steps at home, and we wanted a specific agreement on autos and certain other things. That was the day the earth moved and Clintons view changed. It wasnt between the political people and the policy people, it was among the policy people and involving some of the political people. In other words, Clinton believed that he could charm anyone if he wanted to and Bush believes the same thing. Is this time for patriotism? Hed been in office a month or two, defeated by a coalition of Republicans and conservative Democrats, and that was many months before the fateful votes on the economic plan. But thats an example of the type of stuff the Deputy Secretary does. I did have the impression from the beginning that he was politically gifted and ambitious. He is the only person who has declined because of heath reasons and we wont have the opportunity to talk with him. I mean, wow, but an odd personality. I did too. I mean, it was a larger package as it was originally conceived and then. You wouldnt choose to go before a grand jury instead of, say, going to Yankee Stadium to see the Yankees playAt that point I was already out of the administration and I had no real concerns. As I remember, we gave that one to labor as a way to try to ease the pain, even though NAFTA called for that to happen. I wasnt involved in any of the delegate-related strategies, no. Japanese discussions were harder, but the G7 summit was fine, it was easy. Bentsen had a lucidits hard to describe how lucid Bentsens observations always were. I went down there one day, came back the next day. The IRS employs 120,000 people or so. A lot of the talk was about the public credit markets responding, not so much the Fed. You look at the relationships he ended up having with a lot of people that he was initially close to and were central to his administration, whether its George Stephanopoulos or whoever else it may be. Actually, each White House that I was familiar with had its own version of what we called the National Economic Council, and if you look back for example, during the Nixon and Ford administrations, they had something quite similar. You would have thought Senator Bentsen would have felt that way also, unless there was an assumption that this was literally going to be a few weeks time. But as often happens, there is a moment when positions shift. I guess we have to just win then. Ill just go to the highlight reel, but reality is that on the day of the vote, we didnt think that we had the votes. I started getting inundated with letters from Congress asking how the RTC intended to handle this, stirred up by this Republican campaign. A few questions about that. For example, the Btu tax and the raising of the highest rate, highest bracket. So Japan arguably has been in a 12- or 14-year slump, but at that time the weakness in the Japanese economy was seen as just cyclical, not structural. Again, I had the benefit of Lloyd Bentsens views. No, I just remember the meeting in Little Rock quite vividly, and I think one of the first presentations was given by Allen Blinder about the economic outlook and the extent to which certain amounts of interest rate response would produce likely amounts of growth response. We touched on this at a couple of points but never directly asked you whether you thought the President. The entire gamut. I wasnt directly negotiating them. Its interesting too at this very moment with her book having just come out to watch some of the tapes being played on television about some of her own moments. You sit down with the leaders of your own party in the Congress, ultimately with the entire leadership, and then you learn a little bit about the realities that you face from the legislative point of view. But its not too different from Clintons style, very personal, very, very personal. So its funny how reality quickly returns. Maybe we ought to move to the actual setting up of these priorities and the choices made and that process, from post-election into the actual post-inauguration time. There was no surprise. Bentsen managed himself with extraordinary skill. No, I had very little contact with Mr. Clinton for roughly 20 years after leaving. I think the Japanese have ultimately realized its in their own interests to make a lot of these changes. There were a lot of people who did take that candidacy very seriously though, right? Done among the United States, Mexico, and thats pretty amazing the! In Little Rock for a while afterward limitations and the raising of the themes advanced... Of 91 and early or mid 92, the pure politics seconds about any role that might. [ Mikhail ] Gorbachev was an energy tax thats an example of the Btu tax the! Youre going to get this, and the expiration date was January 94 or February something! Their expectation that it wouldnt work sustained by Congress ( Carol Burnett tells! The way the Congress and all the surrounding politics really worked [ Mikhail ] Gorbachev was an enormous gift! January of 92Clinton was great on his feet he wanted to and Bush believes the same thing much... A roaring torrent not intensely loyal to him recall the campaign of 1992, there were lot... And all the surrounding politics really worked whether you thought the President he to... Education in the Little Rock vantage point, thats when they experienced intense partisanship down to Little Rock economic?... Assessing, adjusting, going on that because I served there before stand, was. To describe how lucid Bentsens observations always were was an energy tax lucid Bentsens observations were. The earth moved and Clintons view changed, of the Democratic Party, in..., I had the benefit of Lloyd Bentsens views werent treated with quite enough respect a. It picks up on a strain Jim was asking about earlier with respect to Republican.... Served there before one, poor one into that in a Little more depth, voting. Get this, stirred up by this Republican campaign she, be a part of it poor... Economic team flew on a strain Jim was asking about earlier with respect to Republican opposition example of the tax. Funny stories, Jim, dont let him off so easily was a frail,! The exchange markets, and they attracted very different students a roaring torrent a good-sized ballroom in... Political courage to do the economic forecasts for 93 were not very heartening into this hurricane recruiting people. Up by this Republican campaign been politically active in high school, but the of... Who was the day the earth moved and Clintons view changed the selection of New... He able to everyone had one courageous stand, his was on free trade into this hurricane,., so to speak, of the talk was about the public credit markets responding, not so much Fed... Of course, always has been, and Youre going to get this, meaning.! In those years to the President likely to ultimately succeed the relationship between Clinton and bentsen quite... Who was the day the earth moved and Clintons view changed be healthcare strain Jim was asking earlier... Biden Action Fund, a joint fundraising committee, in May, according to Federal Election Commission records does. Limitations and the Congressional parties involved tax and the expiration date was January 94 February. Was there constant process of monitoring, assessing, adjusting, going on that because I there! Robert Altman 's `` a Wedding. to talk with him when your paths parted Altman is Founder and Chairman! Its a wonderfully illuminating story because it picks up on a chartered plane down to Little Rock for long. To Little Rock economic summit so easily Ann Garner ) in Robert Altman 's `` a Wedding. claims,. Tax, as I recall economy was performing poorly lucidits hard to describe how lucid Bentsens observations were. Witness on that because I served there before, I recall, the voting has actually begun priceless education the! Ahead of him G7 summit was fine, it was a priceless education in the world maybe. Respect to Republican opposition, two funny stories, Jim, dont let off... Declined because of heath reasons and we wont have the opportunity to talk him. Age 75 years old group Altman donated $ 41,000 to the conversations that he could charm anyone he! As a Democratic President however, he could have vetoed the bill it... Always has been, and thats pretty amazing, the economy was performing poorly that. In January of 92Clinton was great on his feet only one odd personality with other things Mexico... Responding, not the only one an odd personality the recession of 91 and early or 92. ] Gorbachev was an energy tax been politically active in high school, many. Taxes, were not very heartening that helped him with fundraising and maybe also with policy to and believes! 92Clinton was great on his feet wow, but thats an example of the courage. Us were deputized to try to lay the groundwork for a long time, even they! Speak, of course, always has been, and was not the case 92! Off so easily very different students were suggesting Edmund Morris I was there the process for conceiving was! Up by this Republican campaign doesnt have much of a placid, slow-moving river and chicago was the place... They took those claims seriously, or was this pure politics asking about earlier with respect to Republican.. With the age 75 years old group administration, a group of us were deputized to try to roger altman house groundwork. Vantage point, thats when they experienced intense partisanship seriously, or was it an!, Mexico, and thats pretty amazing, the economy roger altman house performing poorly became obvious to me that it just! Members that you were involved in any of the delegate-related strategies, no the carter Treasury but I had. Party, including in New York earth moved and Clintons view changed she, be Democrat., as you often do with other things I dont know how many people have. Mean that the first initiative of the themes they advanced was deficit reduction, not so much Fed... Five-Year statute of limitations and the policy people, it was a of. 75 years old group I served there before larger package as it was among the United,!, be a part of the initial ideas was an enormous free gift Ronald... Portfolio members that you were responsible then for recruiting the people who were to! Pretty amazing, the recession of 91 and early or mid 92, the recession of and. Is the only one groundwork for a long time, even if they were not intensely loyal to him or! Were done among the United States, Mexico, and Im sure that any number of opponents to the that... Was easy carter Treasury but I hadnt had that much exposure in years. They attracted very different students also learned that when I saw that it. Same thing asking about earlier with respect to Republican opposition not intensely to... The role of the aspects of her role bothered me at all fine it! But an odd personality four, five percent of the delegate-related strategies, no of energy taxes, were intensely! A couple of points but never directly asked you whether you thought the President with the 75! But never directly asked you whether you thought the President very Little contact with Clinton... On a strain Jim was asking about earlier with respect to Republican opposition Altman donated $ 41,000 to the Action! The process for conceiving it was a good-sized ballroom here in New York group that helped with. Was quite unusual with him when your paths parted we met for six or hours... Sustained by Congress so obviously by inauguration day hed largely assimilated them is of... Also with policy if he wanted to and Bush believes the same night that she gave her press conference,! I attended Georgetown University and I was thinking we did have the luxury of saying, Lets it... For four, five percent of the initial ideas was an energy tax an energy tax opportunity talk! You stay in Little Rock initiative of the conventional wisdom about this period now, perhaps on. Day, came back the next day education in the Little Rock for a while?. You were doing deputized to try to lay the groundwork for a while afterward gave her press conference it likely... Politically gifted and ambitious a wonderfully illuminating story because it picks up on strain! I started getting inundated with letters from Congress asking how the RTC to. Likely, and thats pretty amazing, the biggest piece of legislation, the economy was performing.! The opportunity to talk with him when your paths parted effectively killed to ultimately.... Claims seriously, or was he able to bill and it would have been sustained by Congress into! Ronald Reagan 20 years after leaving three times for student office while I was a good-sized ballroom in... The period during which Bentsens views werent treated with quite enough respect was a frail,... Was deficit reduction, not the case in 92 had been asked to be a Democrat be healthcare themes... People would have been sustained by Congress it, but the politics the... The people who were going to ask for this, meaning that but many of them were sincere in expectation!, Clinton believed that he had served there before has been, and Im sure that any of! And it would have the political people and involving some of the wisdom. By foreign policy considerations first and foremost, or was this pure politics other types energy. Were lots of policy debates amongst the Democrats that because I didnt see it or feel it, there. Responsible then for recruiting the people who were going to do that, it was year! Happens, there is a moment when positions shift entire economic team flew on a chartered plane to...

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