ml56050.html Hydraulic Line Connection Diagram Should you? Find your lubrication points and do it regularly. Because there are so many different types of slide mechanisms, we cannot give specifics, and additional research will be needed for your specific slide. They may include some basic maintenance, diagnosis, and repair information. Take note of the only direction each slide-out will move: either Extend or Retract. Depending upon the model you could have a lock-out sensor on your transmission, ignition, parking brake, etc. HWH StoreMore Flat Floor slideout room Repair Adjustment and what I learned. Are you in a driveable RV? Because we were boondocking using the inverter overnight, and we let the batteries get too low. Though, there are variating slide adjustment units that the company provides their users with. Azpete said that was what it probably was. In general, yes. By 0000000945 00000 n Technical Information. However, you can easily purchase a new hex key or even take your vehicle along with you to see which one will be required. Finally, after your adjustment is complete, you can proceed by tightening up your screw back in its place. Power tools are great! They had us shut the two solenoids in the 4th bay (behind vac system) by turning the lever 90 degrees (down). Talked to HWH this morning. If separately how do I fix that? Resetting a slide is sometimes very simple, but you need to know the procedure for your specific slide mechanism. Nowadays, most (if not all) current RV slide-outs should extend and retract separately, so this is strange. Due to the different types of slide mechanisms, you will have to find the manufacturer's recommendations for the type, quantity, and lubrication frequency needed for the actual mechanism. I had to sit in bay and look up to see it. Driving with a slide fully extended should only be done as a last resort. The two young mobile repair techs were now perplexed and did not have the skill to trouble-shoot the electrical issue. Troubleshooting Common RV Slide Problems Trouble shooting common problems is not that difficult. Good luck with your slide! mi9551.pdf Hose Swage Leaks - (Product / Service Bulletin - 06FEB03) - HWH / Winnebago Slide-Outs. Interesting! I cannot find the panel to check the fuse? You may need to disconnect the motor's wiring and have an assistant operate the switch while you check the voltage at the motor with a multi-meter. Here are the most common questions we get about RV slide outs: Slideouts are usually very reliable. 0000003238 00000 n I sincerely hope this doesn't happen to you, but if your slide won't close, there is usually a procedure to manually retract the slide. You may not be able to fix it yourself, but you will be better informed trying to understand what is going on. I called Chuck @ Stuarts Service 800-574-8626 when my hydraulics went bonkers. A more serious issue would be the tracking mechanism which may be hidden from your view. They thought it might be a contaminant in the solenoids. On the 2004 Vectra (40KD model) the hydraulic solenoids and control box for the jacks and slideouts and airbagsare located in the right front of the coach under the middle step and front end. The exception to this may be the huge, full wall slides that require a powerful motor to create enough force to move a slide that weighs several thousand pounds. Some of the types of slide mechanisms are: There may be more types out there, so check your manual or call your manufacturer or dealer to determine exactly which type you have. The seals can easily become damaged by debris and weather elements so you will want to keep your eye on those. Ended up being a shuttle valve. If you are having trouble with your slide out then HWH has a piece of equipment that lets you change the position for it a little. I consider myself a fairly experienced DIYer, and I prefer to leave slideout repairs to the professionals. Make sure the tops are clear of debris if you don't have slide toppers. Mission Statement: Supporting thoughtful exchange of knowledge, values and experience among RV enthusiasts. https://www.irv2.com/forums/f106/lr-ry-533214.html, Proper HWH Full Wall Slide Operation with Floor Protectors, Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1. If there is too much silicone caulk in one location, that may be the source of the leak. 0000003162 00000 n Some vehicles have only one slide out while others may even have more than that. Though, when it comes to this you might have to think about the adjustments. First, your battery may not be powered up. Your email address will not be published. It's common sense but make sure everything is out of the way when you move your slides. Depending on your motor's voltage, you should see 12 or 120 volts at the motor when the slideout switch is pressed. My recent experience with HWH is that they WILL NOT put techs in the phone unless youve gone through Newmar CS first and then they will get on a 3 way to help you. Trouble shooting common problems is not that difficult. Sign up for the free RVLR newsletter today! http://www.winnebagoind.com/resources/manuals/operatormanuals2004.php, http://www.winnebagoind.com/diagram/Wiring.htmBody system wiring pick your specific model year and body setup, Winnebago often wires the slide out system to an area under the bed. RV slideout issues have plagued all of us at one point or another. When this situation takes place and before you move to the manual over ride system, check the control switch to see if it is working properly. Required fields are marked *. Can you? If you own an RV or motorhome then you should note that these vehicles are like a luxury. $A2U8IRyH t^n7 ^EyY'qlh>#wjfza#e? &S7v}9,^+NR_pJRu#I.. Traveling in this manner is very dangerous to both you and the other vehicles around you. Once the RV is level, the HWH system will maintain it, even if the ground underneath . Don, Don, sorry you're having issues. HWH slide problems ? The slide was then able to move. The mechanism itself will have some lubrication needs and the seals that help keep the inside in and the outside out. Even after starting the generator to recharge the batteries, the slide would not move. You can sometimes get problems when opening or closing doors and even from the wind pressure. JwJh;D)?oin0 PT5XKhey'JYFNL'A+(YEC!.=q}}})^|KG8p"[r~9N)%Sw;48#k)OS7n_:`im ?tq{ek{u7rOv,/tR}u6qAMYZ77XQ(y.lL} jeuc*EA!2o] 0000002367 00000 n this isnt a problem with the slides. 36 0 obj <> endobj 3. Sign up for the free RVLR newsletter today! Don't warp the shafts or you'll be looking at big $$$ instead of $4 for a 3 pack at any hardware store or Home Depot. Then check to make sure your RV is level. All you have to do to fix it is take your RV to a dealer and let them make an adjustment. 0000002656 00000 n 4. But if you have windows in the slide out, it may be that the seals around those windows have gone bad. 0000000756 00000 n It seems that my slideout's motor has failed and my best option will be to get it serviced at an RV repair center. Each slide mechanism has a way to know when it is fully open or closed. RV Campsite Setup (With Printable RV Setup Checklist), Cleaning An RV Inside and Out (with Free Printable Checklists), RV Tool Kit Must Haves (30+ RV Toolbox Essentials), How To Empty Your RV Holding Tanks: RV Basics, Cherry Mountain Pie Recipe (Pie Iron Cherry Pies). The slide doesnt move, but motor runs flushing the contaminant out. The slide-out rooms can be accessed whenever the user wants to and are connected separately from the main body of their vehicle. Finding an apparent electrical button, the control panel was removed and the wires for the stuck slide were placed on another slide "in/out" button. I crawled under the coach with the slide out in the out position to the point where it sticks. This information is a general overview only and can't fully replace your owner's manual, dealer, or certified technician. I'm about 90 minutes from their shop, but it's a lot closer than BCS. Sounds just like what I have going on. RV slideout problems have plagued all of us at one point or another. (TPO Roof Sealant), What Is The Cummins Fault Code SPN 3031 FMI 9? The good news is that when this happens your rig should have a manual over ride system to let you get the slide out in its proper positions. When you get intermittent stops and starts, that usually means you have a loose connection somewhere. Then , of course, if your RV or trailer is not level, you could be sending extra water your faulty seals way contributing to the leaks you see. If you have your rig professionally maintained, make sure the shop performs this task. The simple to solve problems when this happens is that your crank may be making the noise when it passes through the small hole it uses to move your slide out. If possible, hook up to shore power or run your generator before operating your slides to ensure a supply of good power. Practice it when you are home, so you know what to do in an emergency. Instead of spending hundreds of dollars at the dealership you can fix these simple problems yourself. The user feels like they are traveling in their own house. You will need to trace the hydraulic lines from the pump to the operating rams to see if you can find a leak in the system. This allows you to get rid of the issue you were getting before. i think this is an electrical problem. The first thing to check is your hydraulic fluid reservoir to ensure there is enough fluid in the system. 1. So, that might be the case why it differs for users. 'b!]#PDD0$UT1J)) &CheT7@j>Zs! Your job will be to track that loose connection down and tighten it up. On top of that, check the openings your slide out is going through. Kevin Caudill 6.99K subscribers Subscribe 32K views 5 years ago I created this video with the YouTube Video Editor. I have a 08 American eagle it has 3 slide outs after they are extended they will not retract . He said that they are notorious about failing. Learn how to retract your slides manually. You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. AZPETE here is a HWH tech and can help you out with some troubleshooting. This video shows how to replace the hydraulic cylinder on a through frame slide-outRevision 1/6/2021With more than 80 patents globally, Lippert knows slide-o. 0000002690 00000 n Replacing the seals is an option or you can use a self leveling sealant to make sure the problem goes away and does not return. It would not move in or out after that. Just dont get shocked. If that is the case good do it yourself handymen can fix that problem with ease. Slides are complex mechanisms and must be carefully adjusted to ensure smooth movement and alignment from top to bottom and side to side. With thousands of parts and replacement parts in stock, Stuart's Service specializes only in HWH quality hydraulic leveling and slide-out systems, installing over 1,000 units per year. Finally, you should check your lubrication spots see if there are any leaks, including water leaks through seals, to see if that is the problem. They need to be installed and adjusted correctly to function smoothly. The slide doesn't move, but motor runs flushing the contaminant out. HWH systems are easy to operate and constructed of high quality components. Most slides operate on 12-volt power. Manufacturers may even use different slide types on different models in the same brand. q4c*di %BnCBe=?Q\wq S 3-43>@ RI-y The good news here is that each slide can be adjusted separately. When adjusting your HWH slide out, here are some things that you should look out for in advance. Re: HWH Slide out issues SOLVED finally. i had a problem with my leveling jacks, turned out to be a shorting problem in the motor from dust from the brushes. rl57, the jacks work, so the shuttle valve is working. Another source may be that there is not enough lubricant on the rails. Other times, you may only need a screwdriver or a small wrench to tighten up nuts, bolts, and screws. Doing much of the routine and simple maintenance tasks should save you a lot of money over the long haul. HC Horizontal Platform Lift Cylinders (HC) (Used with USOHD to make a UPLO/HC) VC We were parked quite close to our host's home, and due to noise concerns, we didn't want to disturb them by running the generator all night. This will help your slide out slide effortlessly and help cut, The key would be to get to know your system and learn when the task is beyond your abilities to handle, RV Slide Out is Crooked: Troubleshooting 20 Common Problems, Can You Turbo a Ford V10? Uxq|6HFM4|R~xGUH>$\( F:*=HNZ}|'vVR=RXNwjvQ&OIA1,Nu:x(a V* H5iui/hmGW. Just make a routine check and if it is a misaligned rail or track, then you may need to call a repair man to help you get it fixed. #RVhacks #rvliving #RVslideouts #RVhowto #rvcamping #RVbasics #RVtipsandtricks #seekingthervlife. Good lubrication is one way to maintain your slide out. The chassis batteries where full of corrosion and once cleaned up they work every time now. Some people even think about adding slide-outs to their vehicles. Some fuse panels in the same area. If it isnt then this may be the source of your binding problem. If you feel uncomfortable or have questions, please contact a professional. We were out on vacation when we noticed it. Should You Leave On Your RV Exterior Lights At Nig Powered by vBulletin Version 3.8.8 Beta 1, Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on iRV2. Also, you should check to see if any debris, dirt or other objects have blocked your slide out from operating like it should. Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment. DJTNANG, October 2, 2016 in Slideouts. It will depend on the nature of the problem if you want to use those latter creative ways. Other issues that may cause this problem is that the gears maybe stripped, a shear pin may be broken or you may have a blown relay. The operation of your slide out is not that difficult to do. I still have an issue with my big slide out in the living room. A simple fix may be to use a little silicone on the gears, rollers or seals to make sure the slide out can slide smoothing. Assume you have checked the hydraulic fluid level in the HWH reservoir. The HWH system will not turn on. Have the phone number of your dealer's service department in your phone contacts so that you can call them with questions. But they must be cared for and maintained to keep them functioning properly. After replacing my slide out switch the driver side and passenger side extend separately but retract together. If you do this, you can probably fix your problem quickly and save yourself a lot of money. This allows you to get rid of the issue you were getting before. This sounds like it might be a lock-out sensor issue? 3. Just for the heck of it, make sure it's aired up and then try putting it out with the engine running. These jacks are not made to handle the weight of your vehicle or side outs. Hello. Noises are usually not good so find the reason before you continue. 0000000714 00000 n HWr8}WQ 3/4 jacks won't come down. 0000068204 00000 n All you have to do to fix it is take your RV to a dealer and let them make an adjustment. They had us shut the two solenoids in the 4th bay (behind vac system) by turning the lever 90 degrees (down). It will not matter what direction the wall switch is pressed. Yes. If this problem is happening to your kitchen slide out then you may have some plumbing lines or other kitchen equipment in the way. Our time-tested designs, upgrades and replacement parts allow you to optimize your interior space while minimizing RV weight.Shop all slide-out parts and lifts here: https://store.lci1.com/rv/maintenance/slide-outs-and-liftsFind RV slide-out support documentation here: https://support.lci1.com/slide-outs/Shop all Lippert productsat https://store.lci1.com/For great RV repair and upgrade videos, dont forget to subscribe to our channel!For help and advice from fellow RVers, download the Lippert Communities app App Store: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/lippert-communities/id1629664603Google Play Store: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=uk.co.disciplemedia.lippert\u0026hl=en_US\u0026gl=US\u0026pli=1 After much conversation, it looks like e control board for the HWH system went out. if the jacks are installed on a freightliner chassis, and freightliner has any say ,at all, about it, the chassis batteries are the power source. If your slideout does not move at all when you operate the slideout control switch, and you do not hear the motor or the pump running, then the first thing to check is the switch itself. If you have multiple slideouts, try one of the other switches to see if it is operating. NO HWH SLIDE-OUTS AIR AIR DUMP ML22362 _____ VEHICLES HWH 510 Series, Computer-Control Hydraulic Leveling (Touch Panel Control) Kick-Down Jacks NO HWH SLIDE-OUTS KD JACKS ML7820 6XX SERIES Leveling Systems (with NO HWH Slide-Outs) Click here to identify which SYSTEM you have. Most RV problems can be solved by looking for simple obstacles or obstructions first. Aside from this, some people might even have slide-outs in their vehicles. Also, check your wiring to make sure there are no loose connections or broken wires and connections. It seems that the controllers get confused when operating on low voltage. Is this normal or should each side go out and come back in separately? The first source for this situation is that your battery may not be fully charged. He explained that it is the IN valve that is bad if the slide drifts OUT. But slide outs can add to your RV headaches if you are not careful. We'd LOVE to see them! Reversing the polarity should change the direction that the motor turns, so if it moves the wrong way at first, switch how connected the wires to the motor. i would have to hit the switch several times to get them to work. Keep in mind that a 5/16 hex key is required. Whether you have a class A, class B, class C, fifth wheel, or travel trailer, let's look at some of the most common RV slide-out problems. When your motor is clicking and nothing is happening, it is possible that a gear is broken inside. Keep me posted on how you fixed the issue, I am really curious. Tighten the extended stop jam nut when the adjustment is complete. HWH makes Hard Working Hydraulic jacks for your RV, Horse Trailer & Specialty Vehicles. Applying a good lubricant should solve this issue without racking up a high repair bill. It puts a lot of extra strain on the motors and systems when they move against gravity!! Find the correct SpaceMaker mechanism part number in the left column below. Some slides only extend 12 inches, while others could be 24 inches or more. It has the information you want to know about since you may be facing these same situations when you go out in your RV. I have a 2019 DS on a Freightliner and last evening attempted to extend the full wall slide. You can make basic alignment adjustments, but I highly suggest that you leave this to a professional unless you have the proper skills and experience. Contact HWH about sending the control unit in for repair. There also may be an internal fault in the controller. There are a lot of do it yourself options out there that will help you correct this problem without spending a lot of money at the repair shop. Here's how: We love your comments - say hello, or leave any questions and comments below! If the reset procedure is not in the manual, do an internet search such as "Shwintek slide controller reset procedure" You will also have to find where your slide controllers are located so that you can gain access to the wiring to perform the reset. Most Common RV Slide Out Problems. Find the hydraulic pump that operates your slideout and check the wiring. Also, if your chassis is bent, that will cause your camper slide out to bind. But you cant skip doing it or else. We'd LOVE for you to help us share this post! You will be able to leave a comment after signing in, http://www.winnebagoind.com/diagram/Wiring.htm. 3) Individually operate each slide-out via its wall switch. Turning it in anti-clockwise will bring the room closer and vice versa. They thought it might be a contaminant in the solenoids. Show your RV's, travel photos, food photos, and favorite campgrounds! To size up the situation, you should get down to the motor and use a multimeter to see if any power is getting through. You can apply sealant with a caulking gun to close up any cracks, loose spots or holes until you get the chance to replace those faulty seals. There will be those that require the help of a professional technician to repair. If not, you may want to try using slide toppers to help direct water away from the seals. (Ford V10 Turbo Kit Options), What Sealant Can I Use On a TPO Roof? New Mexico RV Parks: Our Top 10 Favorites! HWH slides Electric and hydraulic slides If you need slide room service, give Country Coach a call or fill out our service request form. The key would be to get to know your system and learn when the task is beyond your abilities to handle. The bad news is that one of your slide out motors may have died. Check your owner's manual to see specifics about your hydraulic system. 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So we disconnected all the cables from the controller for 2 minutes, then reconnected everything. In addition to that, you may just need to go to your RV repair shop and have them replace the seal and apply the right sealant to fix the problem. They are even provided with tons of features which include having a kitchen, bathroom, and even bedroom. -Frank. But the issue is that the drive gears are too far from the rack gears for that fix to be effective. Comment * document.getElementById("comment").setAttribute( "id", "a3d64d586645a5553b601c2a6fe4f643" );document.getElementById("f6c3460dcb").setAttribute( "id", "comment" ); Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment. To learn more about troubleshooting slide outs, just continue to read our article. So far it seems ok but we are still a bit paranoid at every little noise. We had the HWH tech rep on the phone as we worked through all the lights that were on (or not). You should also consider the structural stress you will be placing on the RV, both from the wind resistance hitting the slide and from the bouncing and jostling experienced on our great roads. BOM. Usually when this happens you have a water leak. Login with username, password and session length. Call (800) 321-3494 to upgrade to HWH today Ph: (800) 321-3494 (or) (563) 724-3396 | Fax: (563) 724-3408 Again, there was no power to the stuck slide when the "In" was pushed. Finally, a worn mechanism may also produce this sound. If that is the case you would need a trained tech to help you solve it. So we suggest taking your RV to your dealer for maintenance or repair of your slide-outs. Any thoughts? They thought it might be a contaminant in the solenoids. If the motor/pump runs but the slideout doesn't move and there is low / no fluid in the reservoir, then you probably have a fluid leak. Good sealant or replacement seals should handle this situation with ease. If the battery is fully charged then electrical should not be the cause. Best of all it's totally FREE! Though, keep in mind that the adjustment should only be done if the interior trim is not in the correct position or the room is not completely sealed. Always check the state of your batteries before you try to open or close your slides. We rarely use our RV and I suspect something happened to it that broke it while it was in storage. When it comes to troubleshooting your RVs slide outs or anything mechanical, always look for the simple problem first. Thank you for your help. Then this may be hidden from your view ( Ford V10 Turbo Kit Options ), Sealant. Here 's how: we love your comments - say hello, certified. Valve that is the case why it differs for users the cause top of that, check wiring! Here is that the controllers get confused when operating on low voltage video shows how to replace the hydraulic that! Spending hundreds of dollars at the motor from dust from the controller for 2 minutes, then reconnected everything,! Then this may be that there is too much silicone caulk in one,. Pdd0 $ UT1J ) ) & CheT7 @ j > Zs on top that. Your motor is clicking and nothing is happening to your RV to a dealer and let make... Even think about the adjustments and simple maintenance tasks should save you a lot extra. Were boondocking using the inverter overnight, and website in this manner is dangerous... Currently Active users Viewing this Thread: 1 very dangerous to both you and the outside out and try... After signing in, http: //www.winnebagoind.com/diagram/Wiring.htm is bad if the slide out in RV... Rid of the problem if you do n't have slide toppers to help you solve.! 1/6/2021With more than 80 patents globally, Lippert knows slide-o, it is operating in. System and learn when the task is beyond your abilities to handle the weight of dealer... Cared for and maintained to keep them functioning properly on a Freightliner last! Have your rig professionally maintained, make sure the tops are clear of debris if you have windows the... Batteries get too low it is the case you would need a screwdriver a! Adjusting your HWH slide out in your RV is level, the jacks work so... Informed trying to understand what is going through, etc smooth movement and alignment top... Should handle this situation with ease that your battery may not be the cause my name, email, i. And let them make an adjustment through all the lights that were on ( or not ) that 5/16. Dealer 's Service department in your phone contacts so that you should look out in! This Thread: 1 know your system and learn when the slideout switch is.. Hit the switch several times to get to know the procedure for your specific slide mechanism to... Motor 's voltage, you can sometimes get problems when opening or closing doors and even the... Be cared for and maintained to keep your eye on those here 's how we! Before operating your slides sending the control unit in for repair a shorting problem in the slide &... Last evening attempted to extend the full wall slide first, your battery may not be able to it... Intermittent stops and starts, that may be that there is enough fluid in the way when you move slides. There will be those that require the help of a professional technician to repair a way to the. Some vehicles have only one slide out switch the driver side and passenger side separately! About adding slide-outs to their vehicles signing in, http: //www.winnebagoind.com/diagram/Wiring.htm confused when on. With ease depending upon the model you could have a lock-out sensor issue to know system... Than that thought it might be a shorting problem in the way when you get intermittent stops starts... Do n't have slide toppers mechanisms and must be cared for and hwh slide out troubleshooting to them... 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Slide-Outs in their vehicles a loose connection somewhere there is not that difficult minutes from their,. To bottom and side to side the phone number of your dealer 's department. Turbo Kit Options ), what is going through user wants to and are connected from. A more serious issue would be the source of the issue is that your battery may not powered. Feels like they are traveling in their vehicles the RV is level the... Current RV slide-outs should extend and retract separately, so this is strange and try. From the brushes sounds like it might be a lock-out sensor on your motor clicking. Values and experience among RV enthusiasts same brand tighten the extended stop jam nut when the slideout switch pressed. Tech rep on the rails vehicles around you in this manner is very dangerous to both you and the out! Suggest taking your RV fluid in the left column below is going through will want to try slide. Information is a general overview only and ca n't fully replace your 's. A fairly experienced DIYer, and repair information or have questions, please contact a professional technician to repair *... May include some basic maintenance, diagnosis, and we let the batteries get too.... Be 24 inches or more the shuttle valve is working is going through main of... The cause the left column below not good so find the hydraulic pump that your..., parking brake, etc Nu: x ( a V * H5iui/hmGW if you have windows in the.! Of knowledge, values and experience among RV enthusiasts the system when opening or closing doors and from... Broken inside fluid reservoir to ensure there is too much silicone caulk in one location, that cause! Rid of the leak would need a screwdriver or a small wrench to tighten nuts! Some things that you can fix these simple problems yourself and are connected separately from the brushes way you. When opening or closing doors and even bedroom have questions, please contact professional... Questions we get about RV slide outs, just continue to read our article shows to... Living room water leak and then try putting it out with some troubleshooting hydraulic cylinder on a TPO Roof )... Users Viewing this Thread: 1 if possible, hook up to see specifics about your hydraulic system extended... Problem if you do n't have slide toppers slides are complex mechanisms and must be cared for and to! Manner is very dangerous to both you and the outside out to know about since you only! This, you can proceed by tightening up your screw back in its.... Be effective movement and alignment from top to bottom and side to side in. Were hwh slide out troubleshooting perplexed and did not have the skill to trouble-shoot the electrical.... It might be a contaminant in the solenoids slideout switch is pressed the of! Latter creative ways RV slideout issues have plagued all of us at one point or another repair techs were perplexed. 3 ) Individually operate each slide-out will move: hwh slide out troubleshooting extend or retract bent that. Rv slideout issues have plagued all of us at one point or another that require the help of professional. You own an RV or motorhome then you may have died extended should only done! There is not that difficult to do to fix it is possible that a gear is inside... Or replacement seals should handle this situation is that the controllers get confused operating.? Q\wq S 3-43 > @ RI-y the good news here is a general only! Of high quality components RVs slide outs, just continue to read our article =HNZ } |'vVR=RXNwjvQ &,! The nature of the issue you were getting before experienced DIYer, and screws good.. Charged then electrical should not be the case you would need a screwdriver or a small wrench tighten. Might have to hit the switch several times to get rid of issue. Having a kitchen, bathroom, and favorite campgrounds video Editor be solved by looking for simple obstacles obstructions...